Saturday, April 3, 2010

Rape re-visited (because God knows this won't fit into a comment)

1. To the comment that said "What's next, depicting rape of children?", I thought it might be prudent to note that in rapelay, one of the player's victims is a10-year-old girl.
2. To avoid this who pesky, "having your own conversation" thing, I figured it might be prudent to steal my facebook one:

Jeeze!!!! Not cool!!!
El Jue a las 23:07 ·
I envy your innocence. Of course there are at least 800 of these games out there that haven't recently had a hilarious SA article mocking how disgusting it is.
El Jue a las 23:23 ·
Anyways, if you have enough emotion left over to be angry about secondary shit like this, you are a hypocrite if you arent out on the streets murdering real rapists. I know I have trouble holding back at times.
El Jue a las 23:31 ·
But they are so hard to find, good thing for me.
El Jue a las 23:31 ·
I would say it's a rather ridiculous claim that me saying, "Don't depict images of women being raped" is the same thing as me saying "Go forth and murder rapists".
El Jue a las 23:43 ·
This is horrible.
Ayer a las 0:35 ·
In that case, you are just ineffective, misinformed, and unnecessary, every day, people we consider normal have more dysfunctional sexual relationships (that we also consider normal) than some closet case's relationship with his fictional computer game. I can't think of a single good reason to be a prude about that, if you won't be one about real life.

If you really want to support morality, why not question the practices of our oversexed and cynical society that you interact with on a daily basis.

In conclusion, being mad about an obscure genre of japanese porn games doesn't help anyone being raped, that is what violence is for.
Ayer a las 0:42 ·
Also stop talking like TOK its retarded.
Ayer a las 0:42 ·
I'm not talking like TOK. You are grossly misinterpreting my distaste for an overtly sexist game that will almost inevitably have real-world consequences (especially given that new phases such as 'torture porn' have been proven to have psychological effects on the viewer's perception of women). Rape shouldn't happen in real life, either, of course. Rape is an act of violence. Murder is an act of violence. By opposing both, I am being consistent with my opposition to violence in general, not being hypocritical.
Ayer a las 0:49 ·
I think it's perfectly reasonable that Robyn is deeply upset by this game's existence, and I'm not sure why Ian Johnson is being such a douche.
Ayer a las 0:59 ·
Ian, even if you don't like how Robyn is reacting, you need to back the hell off. Disagreement is one thing. Calling her a hypocrite and retarded another, and uncalled for.

As for the actual post, it is pretty horrific. I hate how people abuse the medium of gaming because it's "remove from reality" and thus an acceptable outlet for such atrocious things. Portraying rape as acceptable in any way is appalling.
Ayer a las 2:35 ·
Go team Robyn. I don't care how much shit like this already exists, and how much a video came matters when compared to real-life situations; regardless, this video game is STILL horrible.
Ayer a las 4:13 ·
jumping on this thread cause i love feminism like whoa even though i don't know half of you:

i take issue with the concept of this video game existing because of "oversexed" cultures. HA i WISH our society was oversexed; the only sexuality i ever see on display is white heterosexual male sexuality. what about female sexuality? what about queer sexualities? what about trans sexualities? if these ever appear, they're the objects of the heterosexual man's gaze, and don't belong to the groups in question.

also, this game is horrific, but i'm not surprised it exists. why? because the US (and Japan) exists within a RAPE CULTURE. i only have american statistics, but they're pretty horrific: 60% of rapes are not reported. only 6% of rapists will spend time in jail. the existence of this video game matters because it serves as a reflection of the values of a culture. we exist in a culture in which a woman is trained to be afraid to walk home at night and to not dress "like a slut" because she might be "asking for it;" we don't train men to, hello, NOT RAPE WOMEN. we live in a culture in which it's basically okay to rape women, and that's not okay!

in short, educate yourself, Ian Johnson, whoever you are.

(statistics provided from RAINN, the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network.)
Ayer a las 7:39 ·
That's some scary shit.
Ayer a las 8:15 ·
I tried to get this game at a soroptimist meeting...didn't work out... this kind of thing is obviously only for closet junkies, no normal, decent person would partake in a pseudo rape scene and get enjoyment.... Pretty darn gross...
Ayer a las 10:20 ·
... in addition feminists are crazy....
Ayer a las 10:20 ·
Feminists have this really weird stereotype about being crazy, when they really aren't at all. I mean, if you look at Rhian's argument, the fundamental point is "raping women is bad". If she didn't label herself as a feminist I have a hard time believing that you would have had anything truly contrary to say about it.
Oft quoted:
"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute" -Rachel West
Ayer a las 10:35 ·
I think he may have just been referring to Rhian's second paragraph.
Ayer a las 10:40 ·
I do not believe we live in a culture where it is okay to rape women, and to say "we don't train men to not rape women" is a load of BS. I wish punishments were harder for sex offenders in this country, having had an experience with one just down the road from my house, but through what I have learned growing up, young to adult men are definitelytold phrases like " no means no" or are informed that consent under any drug influence is not consent. You don't take sex edumication (intended) and learn that rape is in any way okay. I feel the Rhian is stereotyping us "over-sexed" males to reinforce her feminist viewpoints; viewpoints that are totally polar and biased...Like Fox News for women..
Ayer a las 10:50 ·
I suppose, but even that has pretty clear validity. For example, it is more or less socially acceptable for two hot lesbian chicks to make out, because heterosexual men think it is sexy, NOT because they have any support for lesbian sexuality in exclusivity. That is only a further manifestation of the male gaze she is talking about.
Ayer a las 10:51 ·
Sorry, that was a response to Stefan.

Although I agree with you that we as a culture don't go "YAY RAPE!", it is such a common thing it is hard not to say that we don't condemn it enough. I don't know the exact stat (I will look it up later and report), but some number between 10 and 30 women will be sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. Obviously, most of the perpetrators are repeat offenders, but the very fact that they have the opportunity to be repeat offenders shows that we don't take it seriously enough. And media representations of rape are, at best, ambiguous. I am thinking specifically about the scene in Observe and Report where Seth Rogan has sex-aka rapes- an unconscious, intoxicated Anna Farris, who WAKES UP IN THE MIDDLE OF IT AND SAYS SHE LIKES IT.
Ayer a las 10:57 ·
What about the rape scene in Watchmen? That was one of the most discomforting and disturbing things I've ever seen. People exploded and had their heads split open and bones shot out of their arms at some points, but the rape scene (which was stopped before the actual raping took place) was easily the most painful thing to watch in that whole movie.
Ayer a las 11:09 ·
I have not seen that movie, but with Seth Rogan it is probably a comedy and is most likely making a satire of something serious (Vonnegut is great at that) I think that by and large, sex offenders have a mental problem, and because most of them are men, feminists translate that to men having problems. It is rare to hear about women who raped men. Like when that highschool teacher had sex with one of her students last year, she was of course fired, and then slapped on the wrist. There is a southpark episode dedicated to the difference between men getting raped and women getting raped. It points to the huge difference between the to. I g2g to class, but this has been a good discussion...
Ayer a las 11:14 ·
I can talk all day and nobody can stop me, not paying attention to other people's vehement reactions because you don't understand them, or because you don't understand yourself is your own damn business, the honest truth is I know a hell of a lot more about this subject than you do.

So here I go again. So for one, I didn't say the game existed because of an oversexed culture, I said that we lived in one and that most of us live dishonest lifestyles, that was part of my "there are better things to do than worry about this bullshit" argument, but apparently pretending to be more intelligent than your opponent means not having to separate their different premises from your hatred of their words, so ima abandon that argument.

Also go die in a fire, a more oversexed society would be terrible. Its bad enough as it is how much our solipsistic modern love has been replaced wholesale by sexual rendezvous and outright dishonesty about the intentions of the self and the other.

I think it is important for people like you guys to question why you feel so strongly about rape, if we live in a society where sex between people with no commitment to each other is acceptable. If you were to eliminate such violent and terrible manifestations of unhealthy relationships, you would still have all the self violence, and dishonestly inherent in such a society. Josh once argued with me for a half hour that rape can be better than a normal relationship, and I would not go that far, because like I say, my stance on rape is that somebody's brother or father should strangle you with your own shoe laces, but I think I understand now what he meant.

Anyhow, get this. Rape games are not sexism, they are perversion. You might not be able to understand this, either because you do not have an advanced positive concept of sexual morality (obviously you have an externalizing negative one), or simply because you are female, but perversion, especially pedophilia which that game also contains is not something like gang rape, or a "rape society" or even homosexual prison rape, those are things that you do to other people because you think its ok. What you don't seem to understand is, just because you are willing to play a perverse game like this, especially in the context of otaku society, does not mean you condone any of its content, it just means you can bloody fap to it. The most immediate crime is one against your own identity. Granted perverse people also commit crimes, most pedophiles fall under this category, but they commit crimes because they hate themselves enough to succumb to desires (usually desires built upon lies or complex feelings, not because they are magically bad people) which they have fostered through their self hatred and addiction to strange pornography.

The weird thing though is, a bizzare, perhaps frightening portion of the male otaku population has one or more perversions such that it has become socially acceptable within their circles, much like cigarettes and alcoholism have at times been. It makes sort of a cushion between perversion and losing it, becoming a criminal, but it also increases the number afflicted, and of course makes such things as a lolita type character acceptable content for more mainstream entertainment (something quite regrettable, because a more psychologically realistic little girl character is always cuter).

That was a bit of a tangent, but point is this. You cannot stop these things, no amount of censorship or hatred is going to change it, and you have no reason to hate the unfortunate people who are sexually dependent on the rape game genre (remember, there are thousands of them, it is a whole genre) the only thing you can do is live your own life, and try to do what you can with who you can .

I can explain any of this in more detail if you would like, I know quite a bit about it.

PS. If you don't have the conviction to carry a weapon and murder a rapist if need be, you will have to live with the consequence of potentially being raped.
Ayer a las 12:16 ·
PSS. Will not respond to any more calls to political correctness, peaceful discourse, or the like, only to honest vehemence or friendly arguments.
Ayer a las 12:18 ·
PS TRIPPLE. If you read the hilarious SA article, you'll find that all the sad fucked up endings to the game involve being killed for your transgressions against society and individuals.
Ayer a las 12:24 ·
To Robert: Go read this article, it explains why Observe and Report is problem incredibly well:
Don't assume that because Seth Rogan thought it was funny that it must have some sort of deep political satirizing agent. It really, sincerely does not. (Side note: Anna Farris thought the scene was offensive when she filmed it, but she was certain that it wouldn't make it to the final cut of the movie and she didn't want to be considered a difficult actress to work with, so thus, there it is.)

To Ian:
1. When something like this is accepted or ignored by people within a society, it is being fostered by the environment that it is in. Being outraged by this is necessary in order to avoid propagating it. If a 'perversion' is accepted, it isn't a perversion.
2. The porn industry itself has resorted to escalating scenes of violence and ridiculousness in order to maintain its audience. Industry creates this market. It doesn't exist on its own. The same way that Listerine created the concept of bad breath in order to sell their product, the porn industry has created the concept of torture porn and rape porn in order to sell you something you can't get everywhere and to create a market for their own company. By your own admission in your very first comment, this is a relatively common thing. Although I may concede that a few users have some sort of faulty wiring that prevents them from having normal sexual attractions, a mass audience for hentai games is simply not due to biology, but due to a cultural fetishizing and aesthetizing of an overtly sexist image of women. I can;t even comprehend how you can speak as if culture is a neutral force in this encounter. Accepting things like this is what is causing abuse of women to be a relatively socially acceptable phenomenon. Again, studies have shown that demeaning images of women in pornography lead to derogatory views of women in real life. It is not true, as you have implied, that biologically 'broken' men can find no other source of sexual relief but can adequately separate the disturbing visual culture from women as individuals.
3. You really need to re-define your standards of hilarious, as that article made me cry. In addition, the game doesn't have to end, as if you successfully force abortions on your rape victims, there are no consequences to your actions. It is the act of mercy, allowing a woman to choose her fate, that kills you, not your horrific deeds themselves.
Ayer a las 13:00 ·
This is kind of a long article, but it's a complex subject so I urge you guys to read all of it (it describes what a rape culture is):

Also, feminists are "crazy"? yeah, it sure is crazy to demand equal rights. just a few examples of this hitting close to home: did you know that (white) women in the US earn, on average, 70 cents to a man's dollar (this changes even more dramatically for women of color)? Why is it that there is such strong opposition to federal funding for birth control, yet through Medicare (federal funding) one can get Viagra? dude, i can list soooo many more but it's eighty degrees in MA and i need to get out of my room.

also, 73% of rape victims know their rapists. most rapes don't happen with some crazed serial rapist jumping out of the bushes. they happen in homes across our country. they happen in your dorms. (college age women are 4 times more likely to be sexually assaulted. someone is sexually assaulted every 2 minutes in the US.) (again, stats are from RAINN.) also, how is rape NOT sexism? rape is about power, not sex. it's about forcing the other party to bend to the rapist's will and to humiliate them. i'd go on more, but i think the above blog entry details it better.

the way you worded your sentence, Ian Johnson, implied, to me, a link between morality, oversexed cultures, and this video game. also, i personally LIKE fucking without strong emotional ties to my sexual partner, so whatevs. i'm going to continue my no-strings-attached friends-with-benefits, despite your attempts to police my morality! sex is fun! why does it have to be a moral issue? (also, an aside: i think it's interesting to note that guys that claim themselves to be feminists, in my experience, tend to be the guys who actually know where the clit is.)

"I think it is important for people like you guys to question why you feel so strongly about rape, if we live in a society where sex between people with no commitment to each other is acceptable." -> probably because sleeping with a guy for fun and pleasure is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from being forced into sexual humiliation against my will. jesus christ, rape is FORCING SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT. sorry for the capslock, but i think it is the only way to properly express my horror at this sentiment.
Ayer a las 13:21 ·
also, the whole "stereotyping us "over-sexed" males to reinforce her feminist viewpoints; viewpoints that are totally polar and biased?" whoa, Robert, check your privilege. i merely pointed out that heteronormative male sexualities seem to be considered the norm in our culture. (seriously, when was the last queer sexuality you saw positively depicted? or transgender sexuality? female sexuality, too? honestly, i want examples.) (a Seth Rogan example, since we seem to be discussing him a little: knocked up, anyone? even though he is kind of fat, ugly, and doing nothing with his life, he gets to have sex with the hot lady? total male wish fulfillment. lots of women like hygiene.)

i guess they are biased viewpoints in the sense that i am female and i tend to like sex that pleasures both me and my partner, as opposed to appealing to solely HIS fantasies, but you know, i also tend to think of that as a hallmark of a good sexual relationship.
Ayer a las 13:29 ·
holy shit, i promise this is the last thing from me for now, but arguing this stuff is like christmas morning for me:

i'd just like to point out that feminism isn't "against" males in anyway. sure, you've got extremists, but there are extremists everywhere. patriarchal bullshit hurts EVERYONE. why is it that guys have to be the "provider?" why is it gay if a guy likes to be pegged? why are there only two socially-accepted genders? this seriously is just stuff off the top of my head and i'm not very articulate right now cause i'm getting over the flu, but gender roles and gender stereotyping hurt EVERYONE. it's called "feminism" because historically women have gotten the shortest end of the stick, but it's not the whole "hurr hurr feminazis wanna castrate you" schtick that people like rush limbaugh try to paint it as.
Ayer a las 13:33 ·
1. Acceptance is relative, acceptance based on common self hatred is not exactly the kind of thing that socially overturns a perversion. Also, society does not condone those games by and large. Your outrage does NOTHING. The only thing that maintains the morals of a society is acting and teaching values passively and actively, and witnessing their evidence firsthand. By dismissing the pit of self hatred as a socially accepted form of pornography is socially and culturally insensitive. Men don't just want to rape, its either a power thing or its a self hating self destroying perversion. Anyways, why the hell do you think this is the thing that needs to be opposed, its just basement dwellers making porn for other basement dwellers. I know at least one thing or two about not accepting others, and for me it starts with the kind of normal bullheaded mainstream, non perverted man who goes around treating women as objects, as well as the always compromised, never intelligent women who cling to them because they are unable to free their minds from the slavery of collectivist sexuality and sexual-centric love.

2. This is not your porn industry, the regular porn industry is about selling actual depictions of sex, granted, my response would still just be a low F U C K period upon exhaling, but the true problem of mainstream pornography is that there are actors willing to create it. People willing to fap to it, but well, that's sort of the disgusting way people are, there is always going to be an underbelly to every society.

Your studies are about mainstream porn and offshoots into fetish porn. Thing is, you can't control the study so that it shows a direction to the correlation. It is shown that people with psychologically odd fetishes like fetish porn. Gee, that's real useful.

I have always thought sadism should be considered a mental disorder not a normal fetish.

But this is not mainstream porn, this is intentionally disgusting rape porn. Its not that they can't separate the images, they obviously can, because this is the kind of thing that goes against the grain, it isn't rough sex porn, it isn't seduction porn, it isn't any of those, it is explicitly rape, it is stalking and manipulating. NOBODY can get off to that without hating themselves. If someone loses it because of that hatred, it has nothing to do with somehow confusing women with games, it has to do with losing hope in self integrity. They know what they are doing. It is not about faulty wiring, it is about man's place in modern society, about doubt, about the shallow nature of our lives, about pain and loss, and boredom. This stuff didn't arise in a 12th century vacuum.

3. It contained humor that was rather well written, it was hilarious. I can understand its not exactly your type of article, that's obvious from your tongue clucking manner of problem solving. The world isn't a nice place, and laughing
is not the opposite of crying. Anyhow, you die either way, if they don't throw you in front of a train, one of them stabs you in the end.

You don't seem to appreciate that it is entirely possible to live a safe life without compromising yourself, surrounded by men and women who have morals and standards of behavior, and trusting only those worthy of trust, that is the solution, you don't insult the things you dont' like in the world into not existing, you avoid them, and when you can, you take an opportunity to strike out at them, this is not one of those times, you are just going on and on about a complex painful deeply philosophical phenomenon that you do not at all understand.

You sure as hell won't stop any rape by sitting in your armchair of social justice and decrying hikis on the other side of the pacific.
Ayer a las 13:44 ·
see, stefan, THIS is a prime example of pomposity. know your words
Ayer a las 14:13 ·
Fuck your talk of privileges and freedoms, the only meaning in this world is what you make, and the only freedom is the freedom to serve that which you choose. Anything else is a solipsistic fishbowl, a slavery to the desires of the short term, unintelligent, blind.

The best sex is a hallmark of a good relationship?
Fun and pleasure is different from pain and loss?


If you want to live a different type of lifestyle, fine, but you will get no sympathy from me when your colleges students and their friendships with bad men, constant self compromising actions, and inability to protect themselves catches up to them.

Giving up the normal type of romantic love means giving up the benefits of exclusivity and commitment, of universal regard. But I suppose we have all had to start living without those things in this era of single parenting and day care.

There are subjective realities, there are tactical realities, and everything else is up to you, just don't cry when other people don't share your worldview.

Just remember, the truth comes out the end of a gun barrel in the end.

But be sure not to trust me, because I'm just the kind of person who takes responsibility for the safety and well-being of all the women around me, the kind that takes responsibility for himself and the security of both his own future and his families, the kind that cares about other people's human feelings about love and sexuality other than what their favorite position is, and I would risk MY NECK, to protect any of the women in this goddamn thread whether they give a shit or not.
Ayer a las 14:13 ·
Ian, I appreciate your incite, but I have to wonder how you have all this free time to type and come up with huge lectures. I can only but in between classes...:(

Rhian, have you seen Milk? I thought it was a breakthrough to see homosexuality put up as a semi-normal human occurrence. I think that sort of genre is slowly coming out of the closet (couldn't resist) and being thrown into mainstream media. I think a large part of it though stems from the status-quo Christian values (that we hold to be self evident), not simply the libido of the oversexed male population. When we start to accept that sometimes boys like boys and the reverse not as sins to god, but as natural occurrences, then you might begin to see some equality. I can only hope...
Ayer a las 14:31 ·
Rhian, in addition, do you think that somehow some of your views could have been cultivated by going to an all-girl school? Idk, it just makes me wonder. ( I might have just lit a fuse lol)
Ayer a las 14:35 ·
Yeah, I know I am way distracted today, that's just the kind of person I am, its a matter of vehemence, which is part of the reason why I am consciously not willing to stoop to the level of civilized discourse. If someone wants to understand me, they will understand me as a passionate person.

As for homosexuality, who cares. If men can love othermen like they love women, or if they don't love women that's their business. I think the current feeling is that it happens naturally, but even if it wasn't a natural occurrence, it should still not be a subject of condemnation.

The problem is that decades and centuries of hatred have turned gays into a self victimizing group that is perhaps too tight knit and among themselves open about sexuality than is healthy. Though I also don't tend to mind their excesses as much, being a retarded fag is one thing, being a retarded heterosexual fag who produces children and then neglects them, is another. I think its good that they get more recognition lately, and are moving toward a more equal legal role, but I also think that they need to watch out for revolutionary feelings, because they have to remember, its everyone's culture, they don't even have the ABILITY to change it. Nah, the sooner we can forget that gays are different from us in the first place and treat them as a normal deviation from the norm, no more different than morning people or nerds, the better off we are.
Ayer a las 14:47 ·
Rhian was def like that BEFORE going to Smith.
Ayer a las 14:48 ·
Really, Russell? Really?
Ayer a las 15:32 ·
Ian, I was using the concept of "privilege" as the advantages that certain groups are conferred by their society. There are many types of privilege besides gender privilege. I personally have white privilege, cisgender privilege, heterosexual privilege, etc etc. It's important that people recognize their advantages in order to better work at erasing them. The term itself is a recognized sociological concept.

Robert: I thought Milk was a great movie! I definitely agree that there is a growing awareness of homosexual issues in our culture, but there's still a lot of work to be done. Also, just an interesting aside: when you and Ian both mentioned homosexuality, the automatic assumption was male homosexuality. also, I think my time at a women's college (not girl's school!) has definitely raised my awareness of intersectionality, but views like this can be found in your college's own women and gender studies dept, too! it's fascinating stuff. and if any of you are interested in pursuing more of this, I can rec some great books, blogs, and movies!

Ian: So the gay community can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't threaten you (and any other members of your dominant cultural group?) sorry, that's not how civil rights work.

On your "sympathy" paragraph: um, great? I'm not asking for it? One of the points I've been attempting (however clumsily) to make is that female sexuality for too long as operated entirely as the focus of the male gaze. Your opinion as a man as applied to female sexuality as a whole doesn't really matter because it's not your place to comment. It doesn't belong to you. It doesn't concern you.

Also, as someone who is in fact the product of a single parent home, how dare you attempt to pin your fantasy panic of moral degeneracy to that. (and when you're making wild claims like those, citations, please.) Also, referring to the hypothetical people in your arguments by the slurs "retarded fag" and "retarded heterosexual fag" (that one doesn't even make sense) isn't really helping your arguments against the concept of privilege. You just appear even more insensitive and ignorant about the subject.

Also, thanks for claiming to care about female safety and well-being, though your arguments don't really support this at all. This claim makes you come off as incredibly patronizing towards female sexuality.

To conclude, happy birthday Robyn and I'm sorry that this thread has exploded like this. This is the battle that everyone interested in equality must face, but even just educating one person at a time is an enormous victory!
Hace 9 horas ·

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